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The Institute of Objective Studies, New Delhi, has been in the forefront of pioneering Islamic research and understanding in India, particularly in the context of Muslims living as minorities in Non-Muslim lands. Dr. Manzoor Alam, the Chairman of the Institute, who was in Bangalore recently consented to an interview with the editorial team of Young Muslim Digest. In his brief discussion with Biju Abdul Qadir, Executive Editor at YMD, he covered a host of issues ranging from the ‘Islamization of knowledge’ project, the future of the Muslim community in a communally polarized India, the potential of Da’awah, the idea of the Hijrah and the prospects for Islamic Economics in the near foreseeable future. The full text of the interview is reproduced hereunder.
Q. Can you briefly describe for us the role and development of the IOS?...
A. The IOS works as a think tank. When I use the word think tank, it carries the meaning: to plan for the future. Of course, in planning for the future it covers the Islamic perspective, the Muslim perspective, the Indian perspective, the international perspective as well as the perspective of human rights. From the point of view of such planning the Institute has the short term planning, the intermediate term planning, the long term planning, crisis management planning and conflict management planning. The Institute has twenty three academic committees which cover the social sciences, humanities, law, management and revealed knowledge which is normally called Islamic studies. The use of the term revealed knowledge refers, basically, to the Qur’an, the Seerah and the ahaadith in addition to every study which is to be made in the light of the Qur’an. The Institute produces two journals called Journal of Objective Studies and Religion and Law Review. One bulletin that is released by the Institute is called Human Rights Today while an urdu bulletin released by the Institute is the IOS Khabar Naama. There is also a monthly newsletter of the Institute called the IOS Newsletter. We have been undertaking various kinds of projects. One of the leading projects that has been undertaken, and which is progresing at present, is an eleven-volume work on the Empowerment of Muslims. There are eleven segments under this title. These include: Educational empowerment, Social empowerment, Psychological empowerment, Political empowerment, Economic empowerment, Youth empowerment, Women’s empowerment and also a volume on the reasons for disempowerment and finally a volume on the recommendations of all these segments that are to be empowered. We are also adopting procedures in coordinating our aproach with different communities. That is why we have taken up the issue of fostering inter-community linkages in India. While the publication work of twenty books is already in the pipeline, the IOS has, in the meanwhile, produced one hundred and fifty books in recent times. In this connection, one of the important themes has been ‘Islam and the promotion of knowledge’. This is one of the finest books that may be referred if one is to learn from the history of the prophet (pbuh) today. Furthermore, the IOS has also produced three books on humanitarian affairs as well. So the IOS has been involved in various activities.
Q. Does the IOS have any collaboration with other international research & development organizations?
A. The IOS is a registered NGO of the United Nations. It is also working in collaboration with the International Islamic University, Malaysia. The Institute also has an intellectual understanding with many other institutions, but this is not always on the lines of any preconceived agreement between the organizations. However, being an NGO of the United Nations, the Institute does have previliged access to various other intellectual organizations.
Q. Does the IOS have links to the International Institute of Islamic Thought in the USA?
A. Not linked, really. But then we are very close to each other.
Q. How far has the IOS been able to pick up the theme of ‘Islamization of knowledge’ where it was left off by the late Dr. Ismail Raji al Faruqi, who was killed in 1986?
A. To be exact, we are working not in terms of Islamization of knowledge as such. We are more into taking up knowledge in the Islamic perspective. That is why we have produced so many books on that topic as well. Indeed, one of the major ingredients in our project has been knowledge in the Islamic perspective. My referring to the work, ‘Islam and the promotion of knowledge’ is a pointer in this direction. We are also taking up work on aspects of the Qur’an. In fact, many projects are already running on these lines presently.
Q. Recently, there has been the Supreme Court order to have excavations carried out at Ayodhya. But considering the fact that there have been various excavations carried out at the site since 1976, could not the court directive be seen as just another attempt by the government to force a stand off between the two communities?
A. This is an issue that is being disputed at the court and from the very beginning the court has stated that it will take a very scientific approach before making its final decision. Excavations are part of this scientific approach. So it need not be the government itself that may be seen to be forcing a stand off on the issue. Sometimes the system of judiciary itself might warrant such a step. So I would not hold the government responsible for, it may be the requirement of justice itself. And when forty nine years have already passed over the issue, what difference will a few more years make? Furthermore, if the government has, indeed, forced this requirement, it will only create further difficulties for it in that it will have to now wait for the results of the excavation and will not be in a position to impose their version of history and events so easily. This is why I say that the government could not have forced the court order.
Q. What implications does the communal policies and agenda of the Centre supported Sangh Parivar have for the minorities – especially the Muslims – in India?
A. We live in a country that is called democratic, and in a democratic country every organization and every community has the right to flourish in accordance with their own belief and faith. The RSS, too, has its own approach even though that approach is rife with their sense of animosity towards Muslims. This animosity, however, does not tally with the spirit of the Constitution because such antagonism is the real hurdle in the development of the nation as a whole. Nevertheless, we have to realize that despitre its hatred of the Muslims and Islam, the RSS has not taken over the army or engineered a revolt through the army to come to power. They took to the process of election filled as it is with so many mechanisms - about which we always do not agree – but then, they do have their approach. Thus, it implies that the government at the Centre today is an offshoot of the RSS so much so that now there is not the least reservation even from the Prime Minister of the country to declare themselves to be the members of the RSS. Automatically, therefore, maximum support will be extended to them. But the question before us is: what should the Muslims do in such a scenario? We may be quite sure that the attitude of the RSS will be one of arrogance and hatred. They will try to mobilize the Hindus in the name of Hindus against Muslims. The implications of such a turn of events are very clear: there will come about a greater polarization, more injustices will take place, the blood of Muslims will be allowed to flow in even greater measure and they will be forced to adopt an even more alarming posture. This will be the very obvious situation. It is a situation which calls for immense planning on the part of the Muslims while yet keeping the Constitution in our view. The demographic composition of the so-called Hindus is also an important factor in this planning because the larger sction of the Hindu population consists of Dalits - the backward/ Scheduled Castes and Tribes – who have been persecuted and exploited for centuries by Brahminism. So it all now rests on the wisdom that should be exhibited by the Muslims with regard to the stand they adopt in defending these persecuted groups which, incidentally, include their own community as well. Moreover, such a line of action should also prove to be the most pragmatic approach in dealing with the situation.
Q. Considering the fact that we have seen the BJP propaganda machine exploiting the Dalit feeling leading to a dangerous precedent where Dalits were prompted to attack Muslims during the Gujarat pogrom, do we not face a difficulty in educating the Dalits if such false propaganda can so easily turn the Dalits against the Muslims?
A. Naturally, yes. But the point to be made lies somewhere else. We have seen that religion can sometimes be reduced to mere taboos; that sometimes it boils down to the emotional elements that accompany belief and that it in many cases leads to blind faith. Now it is upto the Muslims to discern between blind faith, rational approach and the right kind of thinking. When I referred to the demographic composition of the country, I meant to say that the task at hand is not one that can be accomplished with a magic wand; it cannot be done by simply wishing for it or by conducting a few meetings. One has to approach the problem, and seek a solution for it, from the perspective of Islam. In Da’awah lies the solution because Da’awah is the dynamic force of Islam. Da’awah does not imply conversion. Da’awah simply means the act of providing people with the right information in order that they understand the message in the proper fashion. Today it has become part and parcel of our activities not so much as a matter of policy as of expediency. What happened in Gujarat too was the result of the Dalits – owing to their poverty and illiteracy - being used against Islam and the Muslims by the various machinations of the RSS. Even in the post-independence period, the Dalits have been used time and again against the Muslims. The success of the Hindutva camp in moblizing the Dalits against the Muslims has been, in the main, due to the grinding poverty and illiteracy of these persecuted people. The offering of wine and drugs proved sufficient to lure them into performing such acts. In addition, they were given the impression that if they wiped out the Muslims, all Muslim property would become their own. Therefore, the education of the Dalits has to be planned in the spirit of Islam. Indeed, they have been suffering over the years and they do not have proper information on Islam…on the message of Islam and the values for which Islam stands. They are not sufficiently aware that Islam, in fact, stands for equality and brotherhood. Now, unless these values are reflected in the lives of the Muslims themselves, this misunderstanding will continue and the Dalits will continue to be easy prey for the RSS lobby in aiming them at the Muslims. So, despite whatever that might have happened in Gujarat, I do not draw the conclusion that they (i.e., the Dalits) are inherently against the Muslims. But it is more important to note that they do not possess the basic knowledge of Islam. This, then is the demand of the times. Significantly, the Dalits form almost 60% of the total population of the country and in a democratic country it is the numbers, and not the ideas, that ultimately count in the end. In a democratic setup the Muslims have to plan the manner in which they are to make their way into the corridor of power through democratic means. They have to do this by maintaining good contacts and by removing the misunderstandings and the other irritants that have prevailed between the Muslim and Dalit communities in the past. Unless and until all these issues are clarified properly we will not be in a position to get their confidence. The actual minority in the country represented by Brahminism, or the so-called Hindutva lobby, understands quite well that if true knowledge and education are provided to the Dalits and the backward castes, they will realise that they are not animals but humans and human beings always crave for dignity, respect, equality and brotherhood: privileges that are not offered to them under the Hindutva system. A point in time will come up where they might even openly revolt against the Brahmanical hegemony. Realizing this, the Hindutva lobby has already initiated two steps: to stop the conversions and to, simultaneously mobilize the Dalits against the Muslims through a well organized hate campaign against Islam and the Muslims. This should ideally prevent the Dalit community from using their own rational thinking to understand what Islam actually is. It is, thus, the responsibility of Muslims to seek to understand these issues well in advance.
Q. We are aware that, ideologically speaking, Islam calls upon the believers to enter into it in full….to implement all aspects of Islamic law. But in a democratic country where the Muslims are a minority this is not possible. What, then, is the option that the Muslims face apart from trying to educate the other minorities in the country? Is the option of the Hijrah to a place wherein the Muslims can hope to practice their religion more fully, and in more security, valid in these circumstances?
A. But I see no such place. There was a time when people thought that America was heaven itself. But today it has become a virtual hell for Muslims. Indeed, the mirror in which people saw their own faces has developed cracks, and if one find such cracks then it is certain that it will not be one face that will be reflected therein but, indeed, several faces. It must be realized beforehand, therefore, that there is no such piece of territory that can be termed better than this or that stretch of land. When the Qur’an declared that one should enter into it in full, it did not mean that one should enter into Islam only after it was fully established. It only means that one has to struggle to the utmost of one’s capability to create the settings for an Islamic environment after which one can hope to practice Islam fully therein. Having said that, what then are the possibilities? It is certain that the dynamic of Islam lies not in the bullet; the dynamic force of Islam is not circumscribed by the border of any country; the dynamic force of Islam is not within the system that prevails in any particular country or place. The dynamic of islam lies in Da’awah. Is there any restrictions in this country with regard to the Da’awah process? I think, not. Is there any restrictions in India with regard to the Muslims removing the ills of their community? I think, not. Can not the evils prevalent amongst the Muslims be removed? Yes, these can be removed. There are no legal restrictions for this. Furthermore, there are no obstacles with regard to the economic growth of the Muslims in this country for any industrial venture initiated by the Muslims can be promoted provided they put in the effort. The wise method will, therefore, be in categorizing the zone of activity for the Muslims into three: one which can be termed a possible zone of activity, another which may be referred to as a semi-impossible zone of activity and finally a third zone which may be regarded as an impossible zone of activity, atleast for the moment. The possible zone for our activity, for our efforts to preserve our existence; for our sustenance and for our preaching of Islam totals around 70% of the maximum range of activity. Now, this offers us great scope for carrying out result-oriented activities. Another 10% of the maximum range of action that we may adopt would be termed the semi-impossible area as there are certain legal hitches that can possibly be done away with only if we adopt the democratic methods to reach the corridors of power. Of course, the best way to do this will centre around our ability to introduce ourselves into the arena of political activism, particularly from a purely humanitarian perspective. Without doubt, this should also prove to be the more beneficial approach. The last zone of activity – the seemingly impossible one – will be one wherein we will have to work and struggle extremely hard. For, this is an area of action which demands a total implementation of Islamic ideology. Such a holistic appreciation of the Islamic world view can come about only when the majority of the community understands, and yearns for, the religion of Islam. Thus, for me it is all a matter of understanding Islam. Unfortunately, however, we are still lost in wrong interpretations which state that the door is closed before us. It must be remembered that the Hijrah is not valid until the doors are closed to Islam itself. This is the reason why the prophet himself along with a few other companions did not migrate even though he had asked others amongst his companions to do so. The prophet did not migrate initially because he felt that there was no situation in Makkah comparable to the situation that presented itself to the prophet Noah before him. The prophet Noah, after a prolonged, sustained effort of nine hundred years of propagating the message of Islam, finally lamented the fact that his people would not be receptive to the message and he asked of God to make His judgement with regard to them. However, such is, by no means, the situation in this country. In fact, I am of the opinion that we have accomplished but 2 to 5 % of the work of Da’awah amongst the non-Muslims. We have yet to carry out the remaining 95% of this work. So, even if there were a veritable heaven for the Muslims to which they could move into, the option of the Hijrah is, at least for the moment, a premature one.
Q. How is the Muslim to know that he, or she, has done enough of Da’awah work? Is there a point in time when we can know for certain that the work of Da’awah is, indeed, complete?
A. This is a very easy thing to realize. Let each one of us ask from our hearts; from the depths of our souls as to how many people we have contacted from our childhood for the purpose of conveying to them the message of Islam. Everyone realizes this for, this is a task which, in its essence, begins from the individual. Indeed, once the individual begins the job in the proper manner, the collective results will follow. Thus, it must be understood that we are still oblivious to the importance of Da’awah even as we remain unmindful of our responsibility on us as Muslims. This message has to be communicated properly to the Muslims if we are to hope for a change for the better.
Q. How can the effectiveness of Da’awah work be guaged properly when there is every possibility that the non-Muslim community will reject the call and that, too, in such a fashion that the Muslims themselves are unaware of the reality that the non-Muslims have not accepted their call?
A. Our model is the prophet and no one else. To the very end of his stay in Makkah, he never worried about the acceptance of his message amongst his people. The only thing that he did worry about was whether he was delivering the message in the proper manner. So, as a first step, we must realize that it is not us who will decide whether non-Muslims accept the message or not. For our part, we are duty-bound to convey the message, and we are obliged to keep up with it, no matter what. Secondly, it must be realized that persistent propagation of the message does not mean that we sit in a good hotel room somewhere, make a few comments on Islam and then consider the Da’awah accomplished. No, this is not the way. If your neighbour, who is a non-Muslim, is in trouble and you can find no time to visit him; he is in need of financial assistance and you refuse to use your purse to help him out; he is asking you something of Islam and you satisfy yourself by providing him with some literature on the subject and nothing else….if such is your approach, then surely your understanding of active Da’awah is at fault. Indeed, this is not Da’awah. True Da’awah demands that we act in a holistic manner so that the non-Muslim feels that we are genuinely out to help him. Unfortunately, however, this has been very rarely the case with the majority of the Muslims.
Q. There were calls for the implementation of a common civil code in the country some time back. Is such a code still possible or are there serious obstacles in its implementation?
A. Firstly, which is the civil code that is being reffered to? Where is that civil code, if ever there was one? Is it the civil code of the tribes that prefer to have marriages between a man and his niece? The best marriage, according to some tribes (and high castes) in India, is that which is between a man and the daughter of his own sister. Or is it the civil code of the upper castes? So, as can be seen, there is no logic, whatsoever, to the whole issue involved. The threat of the common civil code has been used to cow down the Muslims simply because the Muslims reacted strongly to it. Secondly, the idea of a common civil code goes against the very spirit of the Constitution. Every community in India has its own civil code and it is not something which they can throw away overnight. This calls for the common civil code may, therefore, be seen as nothing more than a threatening gesture: a hanging sword placed over the heads of this or that community.
Q. The IOS has been involved in Islamic Economics projects for sometime now. The involvement seems to be particularly deep in the case of people like Abdul Azim Islahi with whom we have been in some correspondence over the years. How do you rate the contributions of the Indian Ulema in connection with Islamic Economics which is a field of study that is gaining ground throughout the world today?
A. Well, Islamic Economics is a very new discipline which is coming up in different parts of the world. However, very little work on this subject is being carried out in our country. The Ulema here do not have full knowledge of Economics itself and as a result, their contributions have not been upto the mark. This has been so because unless we understand Economics our ideas in the field of Islamic Economics will be such that they will not fit into the modern texts on the subject. Nevertheless, it must be appreciated that, being a new subject, there is quite a long way for us to traverse with regard to proper research in Islamic Economics as we have not reached more than 5 to 7% the distance covered at the global level. But, without doubt, this is now quite a subject of discussion at the international level. Some good work is going on in the Banking side because it is this activity which, more than anything else, controls and regulates finance. It is natural for anything that influences finance to attract attention. As such, Islamic banking has drawn the attention of some of the finest brains in the country. This, of course, includes non-Muslims as well, who have even joined hands in this project at several places. These are, no doubt, very positive trends. However, I, for one, would not wish to be lulled into a state of complacency under the notion that much work has been done on the subject in our country. Furthermore, there has been little appreciation for this subject from many non-Muslim quarters because of the biases and prejudices that hampher its growth at every stage. The biases and prejudices notwithstanding, work on the subject, at least in this country, is still in its stage of infancy and much more has to be done if that stage has to be crossed. For instance, we are yet to produce an authoritative text book on Islamic Economics. We have published lots of literature on Islamic Economics but we have been unable to produce a text book. This is because to produce a text book we need to have lots of good material. We are, therefore, still in the preliminary stage and unless we cross that stage we cannot claim to have gained ground in this new discipline.
Last update : 31-01-2004 15:00
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